mikroblogolas replied to your post: Re: Nixon, I fully support her right to define her own sexuality as long as she doesn’t try to erase mine, i.e. “I don’t pull out the ‘bisexual’ word because nobody likes the bisexuals.” (Source Towleroad. Ask filters links, but I blogged it earlier today.) Maybe if “nobody” likes us, media figures should stop acting like bisexuality is something to be ashamed of.

“bisexual” isn’t by default binarist. see my long post on this and a million other people’s discussions of it, as well as the definitions by a lot of bi orgs. some people use it to mean “two,” but a great number of people use it mean “more than one.”

Hello!  Yes, I read your post a week or two ago, in fact, and it’s one reason I was quite careful not to say that ‘bisexual’ is necessarily binarist.  Which I’m pretty sure I didn’t?

I think what I said was that the fact that there are more than two genders means we can’t assume that Cynthia Nixon is bisexual.  That’s still true even though some people use ‘bisexual’ to mean ‘attracted to more than one gender’, because we can’t know whether she is one of those people.  The only way we could say that she’s definitely bisexual (ignoring my other two reasons why we can’t) is if we were going to say not only that ‘bisexual’ can mean ‘attracted to more than one gender’ but that ‘bisexual’ always means ‘attracted to more than one gender’, or that ‘attracted to more than one gender’ is the only definition of ‘bisexual’.  Which is, of course, not true.

Also I think it’s fairly evident that the term was not being used in that sense by either of the people I’ve been engaging with who want to call Nixon bisexual and want her to call herself that.  John Aravosis, in a passage I quoted, said this:

What she means is that she’s bisexual, and doesn’t quite get that most people aren’t able to have sexual romantic relationships with both men and women because they’re just not into both genders. She is into both genders.

Doctordisaster made a post, obviously responding to Nixon’s comment that ‘nobody likes the bisexuals’, saying:

“Nobody likes the bisexuals”

EVERYBODY LIKES THE BISEXUALS!

it may have something to do with the DEFINITION OF THE TERM

Which obviously makes no sense unless you think ‘the definition of the term’ is ‘has sex with everybody’.  And, although there are people who use ‘bisexual’ to mean ‘attracted to more than one of the various possible genders’, there are, as far as I know, no people use it to mean ‘attracted to all possible genders’ except the people who think ‘more than one gender’ and ‘all possible genders’ are the same number, i.e. two.

Re: Nixon, I fully support her right to define her own sexuality as long as she doesn't try to erase mine, i.e. "I don’t pull out the 'bisexual' word because nobody likes the bisexuals." (Source Towleroad. Ask filters links, but I blogged it earlier today.) Maybe if "nobody" likes us, media figures should stop acting like bisexuality is something to be ashamed of.

Hi!  Thanks for pointing me to that.  For others, this is the Towleroad article, which in turn quotes from a longer interview at the Daily Beast.  Relevant passage:

Kevin Sessums: …You’ve been quoted as saying about these two relationships in your life: “In terms of sexual orientation, I don’t really feel I’ve changed … I’ve been with men all my life and I’d never fallen in love with a woman. But when I did, it didn’t seem so strange. I’m just a woman in love with another woman.” I’m a bit confused. Were you a lesbian in a heterosexual relationship? Or are you now a heterosexual in a lesbian relationship? That quote seemed like you were fudging a bit.

Cynthia Nixon: It’s so not fudging. It’s so not. I think for gay people who feel 100 percent gay, it doesn’t make any sense. And for straight people who feel 100 percent straight, it doesn’t make any sense. I don’t pull out the “bisexual” word because nobody likes the bisexuals. Everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals.

KS: But it is the “B” in LGBT.  

CN:  I know. But we get no respect.

KS: You just said “we,” so you must self-identify as one.

CN: I just don’t like to pull out that word. But I do completely feel that when I was in relationships with men, I was in love and in lust with those men. And then I met Christine and I fell in love and lust with her. I am completely the same person and I was not walking around in some kind of fog. I just responded to the people in front of me the way I truly felt.

Is that erasure?  I’m not an expert on this stuff.  I have relatively little experience of erasure, of how it happens and how it harms.  But to me this doesn’t read like she’s saying bisexuality doesn’t exist.  Or even denying she is bisexual herself.  It reads like she’s saying she doesn’t use that term because ‘everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals’.  Which, from what I gather, is kind of true?

Does simply choosing not to call yourself bisexual constitute erasure of bisexuality?  Are we taking that approach now?  Are we saying that bisexual people are obliged to identify themselves as such, even when they can expect to be stigmatized or marginalized or not taken seriously, even within queer communities, as a result?  Are we saying that people who are afraid or ashamed to call themselves bisexual are actually being oppressive?  Why are we interested in criticizing those people rather than the structures that are making them feel that way?

Okay, I recognize that it’s a self-perpetuating problem.  The under-representation and the marginalization deter people from proclaiming their bisexuality, and at the same time the fact that people don’t proclaim it means it continues to be under-represented and marginalized.  That’s clearly a reason to praise and celebrate people who resist that trend and make their bisexuality known.  It sounds like you’re one of those people, and I celebrate you for it.  But shouldn’t we be very careful before going from ‘people who are open about their bisexuality are doing a good thing and should be praised’ to ‘people who are not open about their bisexuality are doing a bad thing and should be criticized’?

But anyway, I’ve got a bit off the track here, because I’m writing as if it’s a given that Nixon is, despite what she says, bisexual.  It isn’t.  Even if there is some sort of moral obligation on people who are bisexual to say that they are, I don’t think we can say that she has that obligation because I don’t think we can say that she’s bisexual.  Here are three reasons why.

First, okay, so she had sex with men in the past.  Now she’s in a relationship with a woman.  It seems to be a monogamous relationship.  As far as we know, she hasn’t had sex with a man in the last, like, eight years.  A lot of gay people have had straight relationships at one time or another.  Some quite serious ones.  Then they stop having them.  Are they all always bisexual for the rest of their lives?  Is there a certain number of years that have to pass?  Or do you become gay as soon as you disavow your former relationships and confess that you were living a lie the whole time?  Can’t sexuality change?

Secondly, there are more than two genders.  That doesn’t mean that people can’t be bisexual or that all bisexual people are ‘really’ pansexual or whatever, but it does mean that even if you think it’s okay to label someone’s sexuality according to some kind of ‘objective’ criteria regardless of their self-identification, you can’t logically assume that a woman who has sex with men and women is bisexual.  That person may also have sex with people who have another gender, or people who have no gender.  We don’t know.

Thirdly, and coming back to the theme of my post yesterday, we can’t confidently say that Cynthia Nixon is bisexual because she doesn’t say she’s bisexual.  Because, look, maybe I’m being overly rainbows-and-butterflies idealistic about this, but I think it would be nice if we could support her right to define her own sexuality even if she were trying to erase other people’s.  It would be nice if we could support her right to define her own sexuality, regardless of anything she says or does, because it’s her right, because getting to define your own sexuality and describe it in your own terms is not a privilege that you have to earn by doing good deeds but something that we should support even the most obnoxious hateful people to do, because that’s the kind of revolution we want.  One where people don’t deny or question your identity, your own account of yourself, even if you’re kind of a douche a lot of the time, because that’s just one of those things that we don’t do to people.

I know that isn’t my judgment to make.  I’m not bisexual.  If you think Nixon is being so harmful and oppressive to you that her own account of her sexuality doesn’t deserve respect or support, I have to concede that I’m less qualified than you are to make that assessment.  All I can say is that I wish it weren’t like that; and that I’d like a queer community that regards accepting people’s self-descriptions as a basic rule and that criticizes the forces that oppress people rather than the people who don’t manage to overcome those forces.  That’s the sort of community I see people I admire working for, and that’s what I want.

Image is a screen-capture of a headline reading Cynthia Nixon On Being Gay: ‘For Me It’s A Choice’, above a photograph of Cynthia Nixon.
jeunetbelle:

tylercoates:

Well. Now Cynthia Nixon has gone and pissed me off. 

“America Blog writer John Aravosis was among those to criticize Nixon’s choice of words… ‘Every religious right hatemonger is now going to quote this woman every single time they want to deny us our civil rights.’”
I can definitely relate to what she’s saying, but only because I’ve been in the same place. Straight people can’t relate to that and saying that being gay is a choice really conflicts with the idea of being “born this way” which I think is the only way many people begin to understand the roots of homosexuality.
Nobody comes out of this looking good.

I take your point, Sarah, but to me it seems like Aravosis and company come out looking a lot worse.
I mean, when did political inconvenience become a valid reason to criticize a queer woman for the way she describes her own sexuality?  Exactly what kind of world is Aravosis working towards?  One where people can have civil rights as long as they’re prepared to subscribe to one particular model of human sexuality and describe themselves in its terms even if it doesn’t fit them?
It’s worth just comparing a couple of Nixon’s comments with some of Aravosis’ response.  Here’s Nixon:

I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me.
…
Why can’t it be a choice?  Why is that any less legitimate?

Here’s Aravosis (warning for binarism and ‘splaining):

What she means is that she’s bisexual, and doesn’t quite get that most people aren’t able to have sexual romantic relationships with both men and women because they’re just not into both genders.  She is into both genders.  And that’s fine.  But she needs to learn how to choose her words better…

Allow me to get sarcastic here, because, hey, wow, I would definitely like to sign up for the new rainbow utopia where your sexuality is whatever Mr John Aravosis tells you it is.  That absolutely sounds better than the one where people get to define their own identities and it doesn’t matter whether those identities are chosen or innate or constructed or whatever because it is generally understood that someone’s identity is their identity and that alone deserves a bit of bleeding respect.
Okay, at this point my first draft of this post turned into an angry link-filled rant about how objectionable Aravosis is, but you can google him yourselves if you want to know about that.  That isn’t the point because he isn’t the only person saying this kind of thing.  The point is:
If some people are going to use a queer person’s account of their own identity to bolster anti-queer bigotry, how about criticizing the bigots, not the queer person?
If some ‘allies’ are only okay with queer sexuality as long as it’s innate and can’t be helped, how about challenging that view, not shushing anyone who isn’t prepared to collude with it?
If we want a world where people can be open about their sexuality, how about supporting people who are open about their sexuality?
If we’re trying to make things better for people, how about prioritizing and listening to actual people, not treating them like obstructions to ‘the cause’?
Basically, how about having a movement that tries to be what it wants the world to become?

Image is a screen-capture of a headline reading Cynthia Nixon On Being Gay: ‘For Me It’s A Choice’, above a photograph of Cynthia Nixon.

jeunetbelle:

tylercoates:

Well. Now Cynthia Nixon has gone and pissed me off. 

“America Blog writer John Aravosis was among those to criticize Nixon’s choice of words… ‘Every religious right hatemonger is now going to quote this woman every single time they want to deny us our civil rights.’”

I can definitely relate to what she’s saying, but only because I’ve been in the same place. Straight people can’t relate to that and saying that being gay is a choice really conflicts with the idea of being “born this way” which I think is the only way many people begin to understand the roots of homosexuality.

Nobody comes out of this looking good.

I take your point, Sarah, but to me it seems like Aravosis and company come out looking a lot worse.

I mean, when did political inconvenience become a valid reason to criticize a queer woman for the way she describes her own sexuality?  Exactly what kind of world is Aravosis working towards?  One where people can have civil rights as long as they’re prepared to subscribe to one particular model of human sexuality and describe themselves in its terms even if it doesn’t fit them?

It’s worth just comparing a couple of Nixon’s comments with some of Aravosis’ response.  Here’s Nixon:

I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me.

Why can’t it be a choice?  Why is that any less legitimate?

Here’s Aravosis (warning for binarism and ‘splaining):

What she means is that she’s bisexual, and doesn’t quite get that most people aren’t able to have sexual romantic relationships with both men and women because they’re just not into both genders.  She is into both genders.  And that’s fine.  But she needs to learn how to choose her words better…

Allow me to get sarcastic here, because, hey, wow, I would definitely like to sign up for the new rainbow utopia where your sexuality is whatever Mr John Aravosis tells you it is.  That absolutely sounds better than the one where people get to define their own identities and it doesn’t matter whether those identities are chosen or innate or constructed or whatever because it is generally understood that someone’s identity is their identity and that alone deserves a bit of bleeding respect.

Okay, at this point my first draft of this post turned into an angry link-filled rant about how objectionable Aravosis is, but you can google him yourselves if you want to know about that.  That isn’t the point because he isn’t the only person saying this kind of thing.  The point is:

  • If some people are going to use a queer person’s account of their own identity to bolster anti-queer bigotry, how about criticizing the bigots, not the queer person?
  • If some ‘allies’ are only okay with queer sexuality as long as it’s innate and can’t be helped, how about challenging that view, not shushing anyone who isn’t prepared to collude with it?
  • If we want a world where people can be open about their sexuality, how about supporting people who are open about their sexuality?
  • If we’re trying to make things better for people, how about prioritizing and listening to actual people, not treating them like obstructions to ‘the cause’?
  • Basically, how about having a movement that tries to be what it wants the world to become?